By Friday, please have one person in your group write a 250-400 word response to the following question. The rest of the group needs to read the response carefully and (through comments to the original post) continue the conversation by posing questions, challenges, affirmations, and other ideas.
First (and everyone should do this part): Please look carefully at the following two passages from The Republic:
Book IX (571 - 592)
Book IV (434 - 445)
Second (and only one person from each group should do this part): Answer the following question:
Who is Plato's tyrant? How is the tyrant connected to the ideas of reason and passion?
(Please cite Plato in your response. Remember to cite by number and letter.)
“The real tyrant is, even if he doesn’t seem to someone, in truth a real slave to the greatest fawning and slavery, and a flatterer of the most worthless men; and with his desires getting no kind of satisfaction, he shows that he is most in need of the most things and poor in truth…Throughout his entire life his is full of fear, overflowing with convulsions and pains (579e). Plato’s tyrant, although he holds authority over the remainder of society, is unable to control his own desires. If drunk with power, the tyrant will utilize any means available to him, including deceit, sycophancy and injustice to himself and others in attempts to satiate his infinite thirst.
ReplyDelete“When one of the other parts gets control, the result is that it can’t discover its own pleasure and compels the others to pursue an alien and untrue pleasure” (578a). This becomes a reason that the tyrant cannot attain his wants; his dreams are unrealistic, and the fulfillment of an apparent desire is unsatisfactory. The tyrant can never wholly fulfill his continuous yearning, and therefore he has no reason, because according to Plato, the reasoned part of the soul controls the desiring constituent. This becomes an unending pattern for the tyrant; his desires are incessant and insatiable, and he is “bound in [such] a prison”(589b).
“They live their whole life without ever being friends of anyone, always one man’s mater or another’s slave. The tyrannic nature never has a taste of freedom or true friendship (576a). Plato’s tyrant, “the most wretched man” (575c), lives in this dismal and unsatisfying manner because the potential for passion and reason is enslaved by the tyrant’s unappeasable desires. Even if he is worshipped by his city, and in control of its general fate, the tyrant is bound by his wariness of others, which in turn prevents him from living a life with any capacity for joy, faith or friendship.
Plato almost seems to take pity on the tyrant; his explanation of the tyrant’s development asserts that it is not completely the fault of the man who becomes a tyrant. He also contends that the worst kind of tyrant is shaped not by himself but by the unfortunate circumstance of rising to power. His abasement of the tyrant strengthens because of the idea that the tyrannical man will never be able to fully grasp any true truth, reason, passion or justice.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteElana, I really liked this. I think you answered the question really well. It seemed to me that Plato was not pitying the Tyrant, but proving that the Tyrant is a lesser man than he is often portrayed. The Tyrant comes into being because of an introduction to earthly pleasures. The transformation of a man into a Tyrant is one that could be stopped. Every person has the potential to be tyrannical; only the man who gives in to his desires and passions will become the tyrant. I think that Plato was saying that the Tyrant is a weak, miserable man, incapable of wisdom or true happiness. So, I guess my question is whether or not a man like this should be pitied, or feared? He has never experienced true happiness, or felt the pleasure of wisdom, so is he even aware what he's missing?
ReplyDeleteGreat post, Elana, and great questions, Ali. I've been pushing this happiness question in my comments on each group's assignment. You raise the question well and is prods me in a slightly different direction. Ali, do you think that there is a connection between happiness and wisdom? Is there a blissfully happy fool? Can the wise truly be happy? Also, why does wisdom bring pleasure (for you or for Plato)? Do we simply pity the tyrant because he can never be actually, truly, wonderfully, happy? Should the goal of government be to maximize the happiness of the people? Can those in power do this while in any way maintaining a degree of "happiness" for themselves? Should that be a worthy goal?
ReplyDeleteElana and Ali, I agree with both your descriptions of Plato’s tyrant and I think you both had some good points. I know you were suppose to talk about Plato’s definition of a tyrant but I was wondering what your definition of a tyrant would be? For instance, do you agree with Plato that it is not completely a man’s fault if he becomes a tyrant? Or do you think that a tyrant could really never have a true friend? That he could never trust or love someone? Even his own child? And Ali, you say that people do have control over whether they become a tyrant because they have control over whether or not they give into their desires. Do you think they give into their desires because they are weak or because it makes them happy? Why should we pity someone who is weak or selfish? Why should we take the time to think anything of them at all?
ReplyDeletei agree the tyrant is essentially greedy and wasteful. He can not control his desires and the tyrant takes what he does not need, so the delicate "balance" in Plato's utopia is disrupted. If the tyrant wants are unattainable and his efforts are pointless his effects are completely negative. Plato doesn't discuss positive scenarios evolving tyranny. the tyrant can be shaped by the government and can also affects others. society and the individual inform one another. Plato does not discuss the possibility for a tyrant to work in harmony with the people and the government but this is because he does not believe anyone should change so there is no need for a tyrant to make drastic changes. Plato does not acknowledge not all tyrants want control for themselves. Ali- you said every one has the potential to be tyranical, what if that meant everyone had the potential to gain enough power to change the world... for the good? Elise- Maybe the tyrant is wise. Anna- i think a tyrant is someone who has power over others and can affect them without being affected themselves in other words, someone who has power over others. This leaves it open ended in terms of what they do with that power.
ReplyDeleteGreat post and great responses! I wonder though if Plato puts too much importance on the "soul" of the tyrant rather than looking at the social conditions that make the whole form of government possible. I think too that often--at least in the 20th century--the tyrant evolves from groups or individuals that want to be the "philosopher-kings." Think Stalin.
ReplyDeleteYeah, all tyrants think they are right but some are destructive and some are productive. some times you have to take control for things to get done. its not the way an entire government should function because there is a lack of participation of the people and their good ideas are not heard.
ReplyDelete